Analyst's note: Absolutely must read and carefully consider. Mr. Stewart Rhodes -- E. Stewart Rhodes, the founder and President of the growing, national non-profit organization Oath Keepers -- talks about his upcoming book on the dangers of applying the laws of war to the American people. Mr. Rhodes also recommend books, and other websites of interest to aid in understanding the issues expressed here.
Absolutely stunning is the only way I know to describe what you are about to read in this posting. This interview will open your eyes to what is under consideration by our "out of control federal government" -- for our protection.
One thing for sure, after a review of this entire original article - which I highly recommend - you will be carefully re-reading the U.S. Constitution and our nation's history . I've shared just enough of this critical interview to capture your attention.
"[....] Daily Bell: You are writing a book on the dangers of applying the laws of war to the American people. Can you tell us about it?
Stewart Rhodes: My book will build on the research I did at Yale to show how the laws of war, and the claimed powers of the President as Commander-in-Chief, are being turned inward, against the American people, and how the government now claims the power to treat American citizens the same as it treats citizens of Afghanistan or Iraq. From the detention of the Japanese-Americans during World War II, to the NSA spying on Americans without warrant (which was defended as being surveillance of the battlefield, since all the world, including the U.S., is now a "battlefield" in the war on terrorism), to the unlawful enemy combatant detentions during the Bush years, to the current claim that Obama can order secret assassinations of citizens, it all flows from the application of the laws of war to the American people. The book will also cover the creation of NORTHCOM and the domestic deployment of regular Army troops, as well as how the Department of Homeland Security and FEMA fit into this new military law overlay that is being placed upon us and over our Bill of Rights.
[....] Daily Bell: You also assisted teaching U.S. military history at Yale; why were you interested in military history?
Stewart Rhodes: Military history is directly linked to the fate of liberty, both for good and for ill. Our forefathers won our independence by force of arms as much as by arriving at a turning point in philosophical principle. Sometimes it is necessary to fight to be free. But military power can also be used to destroy freedom, as history shows, including the sad history of the 20th Century, where hundred of millions were slaughtered by their own governments. Whether we preserve this Republic may depend in large part on what the military does, or does not do. I thought it was essential for the students at Yale to understand that link.
[....] Daily Bell: You won a prize for the paper "Solving the Puzzle of Enemy Combatant Status" at Yale. What was that about?
Stewart Rhodes: My 2004 paper (available at: http://oathkeepers.org/oath/2010/11/09/solving-the-puzzle-of-enemy-combatant-status-stewart-rhodes/) addressed the dangerous and unconstitutional Bush Administration claims that the President, as Commander-in-Chief, can have anyone, even American citizens, black bagged and held in military detention and then, if he so chooses, tried by a military tribunal (made up of his hand-picked officers) and executed. Such a practice is a direct violation not just of the right to Grand Jury indictment and jury trial under our Bill of Rights, but also violates the Article III Treason Clause, which very clearly mandates what must be done with Americans accused of making war against their own nation or of aiding the enemy in wartime – they must be tried for treason, in an Article III court, before a jury of their peers, and there must be two witnesses to the overt act or confession in open court before the accused can be convicted and executed. The Bush Administration claimed that the powers of the President as Commander-in-Chief trumped the Bill of Rights, and his lawyers willfully sidestepped the Treason Clause.
Until Bush, only two other presidents in our history, Lincoln and FDR, claimed such a power. My paper compared the executive orders and actions of Lincoln, FDR, and Bush, to show how similar they were. Lincoln detained over 13,000 Northern civilians in military brigs, and had over 4,000 of those tried by military tribunals that answered only to him. Some of those tried by tribunal were then executed. Thankfully, the Supreme Court stuffed the "martial law genie" back into the bottle by ruling Lincoln's actions unconstitutional in Ex Parte Milligan, 71 U.S. 2 (1866). In that case, the Lincoln Administration lawyers had this to say of the Bill of Rights:
These, in truth, are all peace provisions of the Constitution and, like all other conventional and legislative laws and enactments, are silent amidst arms, and when the safety of the people becomes the supreme law. By the Constitution, as originally adopted, no limitations were put upon the war-making and war-conducting powers of Congress and the President.
The Milligan Court rejected that argument in the strongest of terms, stating that "[n]o doctrine, involving more pernicious consequences, was ever invented by the wit of man than that any of [the Constitution's] provisions can be suspended during any of the great exigencies of government." But then FDR opened the martial law bottle back up when he made similar claims of absolute power. Not only did FDR detain over 100,000 Japanese-American citizens in military detention camps by Executive Order with no due process whatsoever, he also claimed the power to try citizens before his hand-picked military tribunal, and he did just that with one German saboteur who claimed to be a citizen. Unfortunately, the New Deal Supreme Court ruled that military trial of a citizen "constitutional" in Ex Parte Quirin, 317 U.S. 1 (1942).
It is that Quirin precedent from 1942 that laid around "like a loaded gun" until it was picked up by the Bush Administration and used to construct the modern "enemy combatant" doctrine, which the Supreme Court substantially upheld in the 2004 Hamdi v. Rumsfeld case, ruling that"[t]here is no bar to this Nation's holding one of its own citizens as an enemy combatant." According to the majority on the Court, the mere labeling of a person as an "enemy combatant" removes the shield of the Bill of Rights and replaces it with a new judge-created system of minimal administrative process to "challenge" that designation. Scalia's dissent in Hamdi is particularly instructive on how dangerous and unconstitutional this practice is, and I recommend that readers of the Daily Bell take the time to read it (http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/03-6696.ZD.html).
Unfortunately, Obama has done nothing to refute, renounce, or disavow such claimed powers. To the contrary, Obama has merely continued Bush's reasoning, and now claims the power to assassinate any American citizen he thinks is an unlawful combatant in the war on terrorism, and he further claims that his citizens hit list is secret and that not even a court can review who is on it, and by what "secret" criteria he constructs his list.
The modern resurrection of these dangerous doctrines, which apply the international laws of war to the American people and treat them the same as foreign enemies on foreign battlefields, is one of the principle reasons I founded Oath Keepers.
[....] Daily Bell: Do law enforcement officials perceive the problems that you perceive? How many? The majority? What do the FBI and the ATF think of your organization? Have you heard from them?
Stewart Rhodes: Many rank and file police officers understand what is going on, and are very much aware of how the Bill of Rights has been relentlessly eroded. I don't know what percentage are awake. I'd like to say it was half, but I think it is less than that. But that is the point of my organization – to wake them up, and the percentage that are awake and aware, and studying the Constitution, is growing. The efforts of Oath Keepers Board Member Sheriff Mack, in particular, are making real headway among the police and sheriffs. In addition to many active duty police and sheriffs personnel who have become members, we now have several current serving police officers within our Oath Keepers state leadership. And for each officer who openly joins Oath Keepers, I think it is safe to say that there are hundred and perhaps thousands more who are of like mind, but who prefer to stay under the radar by not joining. So I can say without a doubt we are making an impact. The same is true among the military.
As for the federal officers, we have not heard directly or officially from the FBI or ATF, but we have heard from FBI agents, through intermediaries, who tell us that many among the rank and file are sympathetic to our position, but they also tell us that the powers that be in Washington are not happy, and would love to try to make us look like a militia, such as the Hutaree, so they can more easily discredit us. We intend to make it hard for them to do that.
One interesting bit of "intel" we got was from someone within the NSA who told us that the "powers that be" are "concerned about the Oath Keepers effect if/when they decide to give certain orders, but have no way to quantify that effect." In other words, we are like an iceberg: there is a very visible, credible "tip" of active duty who have stepped up and signed their John Hancock by joining, but there are many more who have not joined, and are thus the great mass under the surface that is hard to quantify. "They" don't, and can't, know how big that mass is until they test it. I like causing that kind of uncertainty in the minds of the self-anointed power elites. Hopefully it will make them hesitate to attempt to pull the plug, thus buying us more time.
[....] Daily Bell: You will NOT obey orders to detain American citizens as "unlawful enemy combatants" or to subject them to military tribunal. Why is this an issue? Are there plans to do this?
Stewart Rhodes: See my above discussion of my Yale paper. This is an issue because the United States federal government, during both the Bush II and Obama Administrations, has made the claim that the President can detain American citizens in military detention (with two U.S. citizens actually being so detained), and that it can try them by military tribunal. Yes, there are plans to do this, and not just within the Executive Branch. You also have the Military Commissions Act, which made no distinction between citizen and non-citizen. And now McCain and Leiberman are proposing their S. 3081, the Enemy Belligerent Interrogation, Detention, and Prosecution Act (http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=s111-3081), which would further codify such military detention and military tribunal of citizens. Here is a direct quote which makes it very clear it would apply to citizens:
SEC. 5. DETENTION WITHOUT TRIAL OF UNPRIVILEGED ENEMY BELLIGERENTS.
An individual, including a citizen of the United States, determined to be an unprivileged enemy belligerent under section 3(c)(2) in a manner which satisfies Article 5 of the Geneva Convention Relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War may be detained without criminal charges and without trial for the duration of hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners in which the individual has engaged, or which the individual has purposely and materially supported, consistent with the law of war and any authorization for the use of military force provided by Congress pertaining to such hostilities.
Frankly, if that bill becomes law, it will be the equivalent to the Nazi Enabling Act, and will spell the end of America as a free nation. If enacted, I would consider it a declaration of war against the American people, and it should, and will, be treated as such by us veterans.
[....] Daily Bell: You will NOT obey any order to blockade American cities, thus turning them into giant concentration camps. Again, on a federal level, is this a "working strategy" – something that has been discussed?
Stewart Rhodes: It is something that has happened in history, including our own, with the blockade of Boston. It is something we saw again in the 20th Century. Thus, it is something that we should guard against regardless of current plans. However, we have also seen very credible intelligence regarding such plans, such as assignment of special teams within the Houston Police Department who have been created for the express purpose of manning check-points around the city, with those teams being armed with select-fire M4 rifles (the same as are currently issued to the U.S. military). What are those teams for, if not to serve as a blockade force to keep people in and/or out of the city? That was confirmed by current serving Houston PD officers. We have also heard similar credible rumors (or "scuttlebutt" as it is known in the military) regarding both police and military training and preparations for such actions during civil disturbances. We have not been able to positively confirm those rumors, but we have received so many tips that we have to take them seriously. One or two rumors can be explained away. Multiple tips from multiple credible sources across the spectrum should not be ignored. The police and military in this nation are being prepared for massive civil unrest in America, with some of that training explicitly in anticipation of an economic collapse, and much of that includes training in methods of confinement and channeling of populations.
[....] Daily Bell: You will NOT obey any orders to confiscate the property of the American people, including food and other essential supplies. Why would such orders be given? Was this something that happened in New Orleans during the terrible hurricane down there? Was Katrina a "dry run" in some sense for a federal government approach to handling civil disorder?
Stewart Rhodes: From ancient times to the starving of dissident and rebellious populations by both fascist and communist regimes in the 20th Century, starvation has been a weapon of war and oppression. In addition, we can see in our own history the confiscation of the gold of the American people by decree of FDR, through executive order during the Great Depression, we can see the confiscation of the property and possessions of over 100,000 Japanese-American citizens, again by FDR's command, during World War II, and going back even farther, we can see what the Union Army did not just to the rebellious South, but also to the American Indians, using total warfare strategies which included the destruction of food and farmland. Again, this is something that repressive regimes do, and we need to inoculate our military and police against any such attempts in the future.
And we can see a long list of Executive Orders that claim the authority to seize vital industrial plants, farms, stores of food and fuel, etc. Those Executive Orders exist. So, yes, I do take their very existence to be evidence of plans to confiscate essential supplies and property of the American people. Until they are repealed, we should take them at face value.
As for Katrina, it was a very "wet" run when it comes to how the federal government will handle any kind of emergency. We saw the wholesale violation of the right to bear arms, and wholesale confiscation of guns by both local police, federalized police brought in from elsewhere, federalized National Guard from all over the country, and even active duty troops. So, yes, it happened in Katrina, and likely will happen again, unless we get enough military and police to commit to not going along – "they" can't violate our rights without the cooperation of the police and military.
[....] Daily Bell: In the Southern Poverty Law Center's 2009 report The Second Wave: Return of the Militias, Larry Keller wrote that the Oath Keepers "may be a particularly worrisome example of the Patriot revival." Are you? What do you think of the SPLC?
Stewart Rhodes: I suppose that in some ways, yes we are "particularly worrisome" to the political elites. They tend to think that once they gain political power, by hook or by crook, that all the toys then belong to them – including the military and police – and that thereafter, they can do whatever they want. By our actions of teaching the current serving about their obligations to refuse unconstitutional orders, we are messing with the power elites' "muscle." We are messing with their "toys." When we teach the current serving about their obligations under their oath, and when we encourage them to study the Constitution and to think for themselves, we are throwing a very big monkey wrench into the plans of the power elites. So, yes, I suppose they are right to consider us "worrisome."
As for what I think of the SPLC, I think the SPLC is a particularly worrisome example of a modern Pravda, a far left propaganda arm of the power elites, that morphed from chasing KKK and skinheads into demonizing and smearing absolutely anyone who simply dares to quote the Founding Fathers and who takes following the Constitution seriously. The SPLC has placed on its "list" of "patriots" not just myself, but also Ron Paul, Judge Andrew Napolitano, Chuck Baldwin, and a slew of other people who simply advocate a return to strict obedience to the Constitution. That is all it takes to make their list (which I am proud to be on). The SPLC is now directly involved in training federal law enforcement, and the SPLC CEO, Cohen, now sits on the DHS Working Group for Countering Violent Extremism. SPLC is now overtly part of DHS. So, that should tell you something about what to expect out of DHS in the future. Frankly, I think it is good that the mask is slipping and they are being more overt about what they are doing. DHS is turning into the "ministry of truth," with SPLC personnel in charge of orchestrating the target lists, with the SPLC/DHS reports being the text equivalent of "ten minutes of hate" against demonized domestic dissidents. The goal of the SPLC/DHS is to convince all police that anyone who reads or quotes the Constitution is a potential cop-killer and terrorist. [....]"
Daily Bell: It has been said that "One of the best and easiest solutions is to depend on local officials, especially the sheriff, to stand against federal intervention and federal criminality." What does this statement mean in your opinion?
Stewart Rhodes: As I said above, local resistance is both in keeping with our constitutional design of dual sovereignty – with the states (and all state officers) having the obligation to enforce those lines of sovereignty and the limits of the Constitution – and also in keeping with our history, starting with the resistance to the Crown by local and colonial legislatures, and then continuing on to state and local resistance to the Alien and Sedition Acts and resistance to the Fugitive Slave Laws. The modern equivalents are resistance to the PATRIOT Act, resistance to Real ID, resistance to federal marijuana laws, and resistance to federal "gun control" laws.
The sheriff has an important role to play because he is the highest elected law enforcement officer in his county, but a sheriff's obligations flow from the dual sovereignty structure – made abundantly clear by the Tenth Amendment – that all of us who swore the oath are obligated to defend. It is not just the sheriff, but all state officers (legislative, judicial, and executive) who must stand in defense of state sovereignty. The sheriff just happens to be a very important and potentially key officer because of his status as the chief law enforcement officer in his county. But his constitutional obligations and authority flow from the Tenth Amendment and from the design of the Constitution itself, not from his particular office. Still, one of the fastest ways we can truly impact liberty for the better is to elect strong constitutional sheriffs, and then back them up with a strong citizen posse. The next step is to form county militias within a structure of a state militia, and then elect a strong (brave, principled, and knowledgeable), constitutionalist governor. And it is also vital that we have a sound money alternative at the local and state level, so that we are not economically dependent on the Federal Reserve and the fiat money system it controls. We need economic, military, and resource independence and strength in the states to be in the best posture possible to resist federal usurpation and violations of our rights.
Daily Bell: Where do you go from here? Are you more or less worried about a federal response to civil unrest these days?
Stewart Rhodes: We Oath Keepers are now going to put more emphasis on the obligations of the veterans to restore and rebuild the Republic from the bottom up. Yes, we are more worried about a possible federal response to civil unrest these days because of the very likelihood – even certainty – of an economic collapse and resulting domestic civil unrest.
We think it is absolutely essential that those of us within the freedom movement in the U.S. have in place a sound-money alternative system to the fiat money system so that when it crashes, we have something else to fall back on. In addition to sound money at the local and state level, we must also have physical security at the state level (that means a posse in support of the sheriff, state defense forces and a true citizens militia, starting with county militia units), and food and fuel security at the state level.
If we don't have those three critical areas covered, then we will have a desperate American population that will be far more likely to go along with "martial law" (and a military that is also more likely to impose it) and desperate, hungry people who are more likely to accept whatever new world currency the power elites have waiting in the wings. Again, we hope to screw up their plans by actively engaging every American veteran in the vital mission of restoring the key infrastructure and institutions we have allowed to atrophy.
In other words, we want to see veterans work to get themselves and their families squared away on each of those three core needs – physical security, financial security, and food security – and thus prepared for the crash, and then we want the veterans to help their neighborhoods, their towns, counties, and ultimately their state become prepared, strong, and resilient, as the Founders intended us to be. We will encourage veterans to do that both in the private "civil society" sphere, through self-help, voluntary mutual aid, and voluntary community cooperation, and also in the public sphere, through pushing for official legislative action from the town level on up.
With the close assistance of Giordano Bruno of Neithercorp Press (http://neithercorp.us/npress/), we will be launching this initiative within the next few weeks. We are actively seeking the participation of several well known economists and alternative economics experts. If any of your readers want to assist, they can reach Giordano directly by email at This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it..
[....] Daily Bell: Is it necessary to have so many police and Swat units, etc? Who is behind it?
Stewart Rhodes: No, it is not. Again, with a posse and a revitalized, official citizen militia, there would be sufficient military force in the population itself, organized and available to the sheriff and/or governor for any emergency, that such special police units in such great numbers would not be necessary. For the most part, it is the easy availability of federal grants, equipment, and training that is behind the militarization of the police and the abundance of SWAT type units. The drug war, of course, also plays a significant role in both the justification and a source of funding by means of asset forfeiture. Such militarization serves to drive a wedge between the police and the community, increasing an "us v. them" mindset in both the police – who begin to behave as if all citizens are potential enemies – and among the people who begin to see the police as an occupying force. Such a separation is reinforced and encouraged by DHS and by propaganda organs such as the SPLC. So, I think it is safe to say that the militarization of the police, and the increasing nationalization of local police and their increasing dependence on the federal government, is no accident, but is part of the intentional flipping of the Founders' design on its head – leading to weak people, in weak states, with a militarized, nationalized, police and military as part of a vastly expanded national power over them.
[....] Daily Bell: Is the US inevitably headed down an authoritarian path. Do you fear the break-up US society?
Stewart Rhodes: The U.S. is clearly headed down an authoritarian path, but I don't think it is inevitable – not if we act to stop it. If we don't act, and act right away and decisively, then yes, we will lose our freedom on the United States. We are now about ¾ there, and all that is really missing is the right pretext – the right crisis – to go all the way. But we still have a window of opportunity to turn things around peacefully. It is a rapidly narrowing window, but it is still there. What will count is what we do now, between this moment and when the crisis comes. Certainly, we can see in history how oppressive regimes and would-be dictators use crisis to their advantage. But a crisis can also be a window of opportunity for the advocates of freedom. What will matter is whether we on the freedom team are ready for it.
I think a break-up of US society is very possible, so yes, I do fear it and the chaos and danger it would bring. I have children, and I am concerned for their safety. However, I am also concerned for their liberty, and if we have to go through turmoil and crisis so that the future of liberty is secured, then I feel the same way as Thomas Paine when he said "If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my child may have peace." The United States is in the danger it is in because we, the American people, have been negligent in our obligations to be eternally vigilant in guarding our liberty, and we have neglected our duty to preserve those institutions of a free people that the Founding Generation learned were absolutely necessary to liberty. We have no one else to blame, and the only thing worse than letting it get this bad would be for us to leave it to our children and grand-children to fix. It is our mess, and we need to clean it up, now.
We can do it by first and foremost strengthening and preparing ourselves, our families, our neighborhoods, our towns, our counties, and our states to weather the coming storm, so we can rebuild on principles of liberty and independence rather than being weak, desperate, hungry people who sell out our birthright of liberty and our sovereignty for a FEMA debit card (which would be a very easy way for the "new world currency" to be introduced).
One of the chief goals of Oath Keepers is to break down that artificial barrier that is being erected between the police and the people, remind the police that they and their children will have to live under an increasingly tyrannical government too, if they go along with the destruction of the Bill of Rights, and remind both police and the citizenry that they should be allies in the restoration of our Republic, and that means a restoration of local independence and state sovereignty. In particular, when we get veterans and police talking, we really give the power elites heartburn, since there is a very real common bond and mutual respect between them, as they both took that same oath, and they both were willing to give their lives in service. Yes, some become police because of a power-trip. But most police joined the force with the best of intentions of serving their communities as defenders of the lives, liberties, and property of the people. We just have to remind them of that original purpose and show them how their higher purpose has been warped and disfigured, just as the purpose of the military is being warped and disfigured. The power elite want the police to be merely obedient muscle, to just "enforce" whatever laws they pass, without question. It won't be easy to counter that indoctrination, but we will not give up. We know we are engaged in a battle for the hearts and minds of our police as much as for the hearts and minds of our military, and we will not forsake them and give them over into the hands of the enemy. They are us. In the end, we are all Americans. We just have to reach them, teach them, and inspire them to keep their oaths.
